The Status of Mesh Support in Second Life
Today Linden Lab gave Second Life users an update on mesh support and lifted the NDA for current beta testers. I can now tell you that for about the last year, we here at Sand Castle Studios have been deeply involved in working with the Lindens to bring mesh support to Second Life.
A Brief History
Mesh support was first announced at SLCC back in 2009. Back then we wrote a detailed post defining mesh support and how it would change Second Life. In a nutshell, mesh support allows content created in professional 3D modeling software, such as Maya or Blender, to be imported directly into Second Life. This feature gives content creators new levels of freedom and therefore will bring creations with new levels of detail and realism to Second life.
The Progress of Mesh
The Lindens have been working extremely hard and mesh in SL has come a long way since we here at Sand Castle Studios first began beta testing.
Here are some of the technical details of mesh as it stands now:
* Import format is COLLADA (other formats may be available in the future)
* Meshes will need specifically made textures.
* Meshes will have custom UV maps.
* There are no scale restrictions on mesh objects.
A scale conversion of 1:1 for mesh objects when being brought into Second Life is available. This means that if your mesh asset is 25x15x30 (beyond the usual Second Life scale restrictions of 10x10x10), once in world it will retain the size, shape, and scale reflected in the third party 3D modeling software used to create it.
* Each mesh will consist of five component meshes: four for different Levels Of Detail and one for collisions (for Havok).
Levels of detail will be needed for each object, as they cannot be generated on the fly (as they are with sculpted prims). This means modelers will need to create four versions of the same object. Starting with the most detailed version of the asset, each decrement will need to consist of around a 50% less polygons than the previous level. These levels of detail can technically be generated by the Second Life client’s mesh import tools, but this takes exact control out of the hands of the user.
* COLLADA allows rigging which makes it possible to have entire avatar replacements that bend with animations.
Once rigged to the Second Life avatar skeleton, a worn mesh is able to move along with the movements of an avatar in-world. Rigged mesh objects can be worn as simple attachments such as jewelry, more complex objects such as clothing or hair, and can even replace the entire Second Life avatar if desired.
In its present state, the rigging system does not allow the creation of arbitrary skeletons or bone offsets (moving the joints around). Mesh objects must be bound and rigged to the default Second Life avatar skeleton AS IS. Essentially, this requires artists to build their assets around the skeleton, instead of building their assets and putting the skeleton into position accordingly. However, Linden Lab is presently working on adding these features.
* Like other in-world objects, mesh objects will have an associated prim cost. The prim count of mesh objects is determined by the file size of the highest level of detail, or the physics cost, whichever is higher.
As it stands, the mesh economy is governed by virtual prim count associated with each mesh object. This prim count is based on the storage (memory) size of a given object, a rough translation being the higher amount of polygons an object consists of, the greater its prim count will be. However, other aspects of a mesh object can also play a role in its associated storage size, such as smooth versus hard-edged normals. There is a hard limit of ~60k polygons per mesh object, although such an object would cost a great deal of prims.
* There is no set upload fee for mesh objects as of now.
It is speculated that fees could be in the ball park of L$10 per prim.
Open Beta Coming Soon
During Philip Rosedale’s keynote at this year’s SLCC , he committed to bringing mesh imports to Second Life before the end of the year. As of today, Linden Lab says that they are planning for mesh to go into open beta in about two weeks. In order to access this, users will need to download a specific Project Viewer that will allow them access to a development grid where mesh is enabled.
The Possibilities
Mesh has some incredibly exciting implications for content creators, and I have no doubt that the Lindens want to get as much feedback as possible. Some possible implications from the addition of mesh imports may be:
- More detailed, realistic looking content
- Less lag, increased performance
- Virtual content market and economy growth
- Ability to legitimately back up content inside and outside of Second Life
- and More!
Linden Lab has opened a door where the potential of possibilities are endless.
Take a look at myself (Gianna Borgnine) and SCS’s Chief Creative Officer, Reed Steamroller, as we introduce Draxtor Despres to our mesh creations.
You can view more videos of our work and others on Second Life’s YouTube page.
Thank you for all the details. This was exactly the information I was looking for.
It sounds like Linden Lab as considered everything we need!
You’re welcome! The Lindens have worked very hard and let me tell you.. we were VERY demanding. LOL.
No scale restrictions!!!! HURRAY! *deletes massive stock of sized mega prims*
It is exciting, but keep in mind, these are only the current details, they may change.
Falcon Linden – “We’re going to modify the viewer so you can’t accidentally scale your mesh to the point where you’d exceed the parcel’s prim limits, just to be safe”
[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Vincent Hunt, Kimberly Winnington, W. Reed Seal Foss, Paper Aircrane, Latif Khalifa and others. Latif Khalifa said: RT @ReedSteamroller: Looking for details on Mesh Support in Second Life? Look no further: http://bit.ly/9NTgnB #SL #SecondLife #MeshSupport [...]
[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Jenn Forager, Holt Roussel. Holt Roussel said: The Status of Mesh Support in Second Life http://t.co/Eo76nm9 [...]
[...] [...]
>> mesh objects will have an associated prim cost. >>
how much vertex or faces per object will cost 1 prim..
is there a number somewhere..
most important if some want to prepare things before it opens.
Here’s a quote from Runitai Linden, the guy working all of this out:
“Over the next couple weeks, we’re going to start enforcing LoDs and adjusting mesh prim costs. The new limits will be 4KB per prim, but only the highest LoD will count against the prim cost. Each LoD must be NO MORE than 50% the size of the next highest LoD
If N is the number of bytes in High LoD:
High LoD = N bytes
Mid LoD <= N/2
Low LoD <= N/4
Lowest LoD <= N/8
Once a reduction is less than 128 vertices, no further reduction is necessary."
So there. Hopefully Runitai won't kick me for quoting him here
Oh, one other thing. None of that is final.
The cost is not final yet, but:
Nyx Linden – “The cost of a mesh will be based on the filesize of the highest level of detail, or the physics cost, whichever is higher”
Falcon Linden – “Rest assured we will provide you with all the tools you need to visualize and estimate the costs.”
Thank you so much for sharing these details! I hope we get a set of wiki pages similar to the Display Name pages so we can get familiar with things before the public beta begins.
I think that’s a great suggestion!
Basically, this all reads to me like a sculpted prim with a collision frame that makes sense, at some variable/multiple of the regular upload fee.
The only real use that appears to me is for making non-human type avatars. But that can’t happen until the skeleton rigging gets changed.
Other than that, I don’t see any new information here that wasn’t already released.
The primary issue in my mind is… what’s the rez time on these things? Am I going to be teleporting into a field of weird-looking… stuff?… and have to wait minutes for it all to load? Or will it all resolve in a matter of seconds like with regular prims?
Totally different from sculpted prims. I’m going to do a post on this tonight since so many people are saying that, but in a nutshell.. you have so much more control with mesh, it takes a fraction of the time to import (you could potentially import a whole scene at once), and if modelled correctly for many less prims.
While some non-human avatars will need bone offsets.. you can still do a lot with the avatar rigging now. Check out this video for some more examples – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nG6_twLCdxI
Since with meshes you will have less triangles or faces in a given scene, rez time will be even faster than it is now and most users should feel an increase in performance.
Thanks so much! I love the videos and can’t wait to see the creations and environments that will be coming from so many talented designers and gamers. This is so exciting!
[...] The Status of Mesh Support in Second Life – This beta tester, Sand Castle Studios, tells us more about the coming meshes; Collada, no size limit, custom UV Maps, 5 levels of mesh – 4 LoD + 1 collision, rigging is allowed – meaning one can make a replacement AV, upload fee starts at L$10 but depends on polygon count, hard and rounded edges. [...]
[...] If you want to get very technical on Second Life mesh and learn about the specifics of COLLADA in SL, Gianna Borgnine has posted a very nice little info packet on the subject that you can find right here. [...]
A very interesting piece, but unfortunately it included a lot of factually incorrect information regarding meshes. I corrected many of them in the comments there. I think if more people understood meshes, they would like them better.
What I find fascinating is the possibilities with avatar design. As an anthro, I look forward to being able to create an actual anthro shape with appropriate facial and other features without needing to eat up attachment points for head, ears, tail, paws etc.
[...] good rundown of all the basic info by Gianna [...]
[...] The Status of Mesh Support in Second Life [...]
Does using the default avatar skeleton mean that the existing constraints on avatar size and proportions will still be in place? *sob*
erm, yeah sorta.
i mean, you could make an avatar with a HUGE head or something. the proportions of the mesh aren’t really constrained directly. but at the same time, it is the SL avatar skeleton, the one you’ve always been tied to.
Reed: depends on the popularity of the request, what resources we have, how difficult it is to do technically
[13:15] Nyx Linden: so the default skeleton for now, other skeletons would be a project for later that we’d have to design, put on our backlog, and prioritize
[13:15] Nyx Linden: so I can’t promise anything
I am wondering a few things…
The hulk statue…approximately how many prims would that be considered in regards to mesh detail…
Are hollow points actually hollow..aka, can I mesh a house and bring it in, walk through it, hit walls, go through arches, etc. (please tell me the end to dead spaces). My initial thinking is yes, as the physics mesh will take over…but never know.
why would a poly count increase as things become sized up…as mentioned in how you cant expand past your parcel prim limit by resizing the mesh…that is worrying…does no good if a building mesh would be more against primcount than just building the buildings out of prims and sculpties…
When is it going to be released…or at least in open beta so content creators can start practicing!!!
[...] Sand Castle Studios: The Status of Mesh Support in Second Life – “Today Linden Lab gave Second Life users an update on mesh support and lifted the NDA for current beta testers. I can now tell you that for about the last year, we here at Sand Castle Studios have been deeply involved in working with the Lindens to bring mesh support to Second Life.“ [...]
my best guess on the hulk statue is ~10 prims.
yes, depending on how you setup the the physics of your mesh, you’ll be able to make a house and walk into it, like in the video of ours.
in my experience, polycount has increased as the object’s scale is sized DOWN, not up. doing so creates smaller and smaller triangles for the havok physics engine to deal with. these smaller triangles require more complex computations in order to exhibit correct physical characteristics. in any case, this is definitly weird to deal with and they’re still working on it.
a good work around it to just use the viewer’s physcial shape generation features, instead of your own mesh bounding box. there are a couple of options for it, and getting one that work for you shouldn’t be too hard to figure out. this also seems to nullify any prim count adjusting based on object scale. although, i haven’t had as much time as i would like to play with it.
LL is putting out an announcement regarding open beta in about a week, as far as i know.
Thanks reed.
hmm…10 prims via mesh, or 6 prims via sculpty…I guess for things like that, there is no advantage in going the mesh route in regards to trimming down prims.
It appears that meshes will be most advantagious towards either avatar rigging, or buildings…but statues and other such things, if the 10 prim count for hulk is correct and fairly standard, seems neutral. Might be easier to simply finish a work and import the mesh of course…and that is a big selling point, but its trade in convenience for a higher prim count overall.
The work…the only thing I would say is better about hulk via mesh verses hulk via sculpty is the seamless texturing, which actually is a really big selling point, but still trying to bend my mind around a near doubling of prim count…
no such thing as a perfect solution. Cheers for the response.
Heya reed
Well, I talked to someone whom knows absolutely how many prims the hulk statue took considering he was there and checked himself
it is over 200..I forget the number exactly, as I was completely disgusted at that.
I have made a orc, which looks equal to that build and did it in 10 prims (sculpts).
So, what this means to me is that mesh imports are going to be absolutely useless for organic building…will be a simple architectural help tool and a avatar attachment enhancement, and thats about it.
You (or your friend) are wrong.
You can go and test it by yourself.
I made a giant monster with at least the double amount of polygons that the Hulk one and it only take 31 prims with the maximum size of 64 meters!!
Notice that to get a good prim value you need good LODs too and a nice phys shape. Maybe that hulk was 200 at time to upload because it was alot of time ago, without any LOD, etc.. and was just a test (you should take this in account in first instance).
So lets go and test by yourself and you can see how some complex structures are really few prims (I saw houses of 1 prim, covered swiming pool of 2 prims, etc…)
I have a question very simple. I jus want know where I can follow up to date how is working. I meant.. a direct link where I can see all news related to mesh supports, the availability of the open beta viewer etc.. Because Im a bit confused about where get the most new info about it and I dont want lose the oportunity to test.
Another one… there is a group in SL or something to join and participate making comments? Something like a group where people share bugs, etc. Im 3D disgner since really looong time and I think maybe I can help a little making suggestion, reporting bugs, testing, etc…
Sorry for my bad english =_=”. Ill waiting for your answer. Thanks for your post, I really was waiting for mesh support since I play SL early 2007 lol.♥
Really, the best source of information for everyone right now is the Second Life blog. There should be a formal announcement there about the open beta within the next week.
Mesh Dev is a Second Life group devoted to polygon mesh support in Second Life. Free to join for anyone. Questions Answers and Ideas can be found there.
sorry again, i cant find the group. I type Mesh Dev in search but nothing with that name appear ._.
just sent you an invitation.
if anybody else is having problems joining the group, just let me know and i’ll send you an invitation as well
So basically, The lindens want others to pay the cost of their emulator being too slow….if that is the case al teh work You done for beta testing for mesh is ceaper labour than what payed in bangladesh. Adding tat with this We can iport 230 meter lonf ogjects at a cost of one million dollars+ the cost of professional3d texturing offworld. Maybe this is just the cherry on top to mark an end to secodn life and its business activity. Yes because ls is nto a game at these costs it is a business platform , only that it is too slow for real money business groups to waste time and effort on it.Uselsees to add that mesh wil flop if it not backed up by 1 kileometer x1kilometer sims size and 16 itmes more prims at a 1/4 tier costs of what tier pricingis currently.Utnil thses adjustments arent made sl is not prifitable to invest in, espeically for real estate. if A sim owner cant be profitable to rent or sell his homes, there ill be no such homes on the market, no homes, no residents , no residents = no consuming, no consuming = no revenues. Yu cannot expand a world if You have not the faitest idea of how a gross domestic product is calculated. Mayeb Lindens woudl better learn what gross domestic product is abotu since the have a world to offer with virtual citizens in it that pay tangible money and not monopoly money.
First. What do you mean by “emulator being too slow”? What emulator are you speaking of?
After that, maybe you can try explaining the rest of your comment?
mm i either understand the comment at all, i think she want says “simulator”??
well.. i dont think this is the end of sl. It just the opossite, its a new begining!! and better than never, this is the change im waiting for long time, this is the change that everybody need. This not just make sl have better apearence, its also make sl with less lag, better performance in our viewers and more variety of content. People really cant imagine how big this is!
I do love a positive outlook on things. So very refreshing! Thank you for your comment
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